I was just wondering about which of people's designed levels hold the current records for level statistics. Here are the ones I know about; does anyone know of levels that beat these?

(And they have to be interesting levels -- it wouldn't count if someone made a level where you have to save 1 of 300 just to break the records, unless that was needed for the idea of the level to work.)

Most lemmings -- 255 on Insane Steve's "Stress Relief"

Smallest % to save -- 1 of 120 on my level "A Shock to the System"

Longest time limit -- 39:00 on Adam's "The long trek to freedom"

Longest minimum time actually required to complete level -- over 25:00 on Steaver's "Absolute Ultimate Challenge"

Shortest time limit -- 0:20 on my level "Twenty Second Teaser" and its sequel "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Lemming"

Highest release rate -- 255 on Insane Steve's "Stress Relief"

Largest area -- 1500 x 1500 on Adam's "The long trek to freedom"

Fewest total skills -- 0 on guest's "This level requires no skill"

Most entrances -- 50 on one of Adam's levels

Largest area - The Long Road to Freedom by Me - 1500 x 1500

That UC7 one is called "Absolute Ultimate Challenge".

You should also do one for cheapest trick.

What was its time limit, though?

I don't know about "cheapest trick"; how do you judge?

The time limit is 37:45.

Hmm...a poll, maybe?

Ah. I'm afraid Adam's level beats that, then.

I don't think I have any of the levels mentioned in the original post. What levelpacks am I missing? :???:

"The Bombatron" is from Steaver's Lemmings Plus 2.
"Stress Relief" is from Insane Steve's Lost Levels.
I don't know about Adam's two levels; as far as I know they're not in any packs yet.
"A Shock to the System" is from my Mac levels; I have no plans to remake them on Cheapo, sorry.
"Twenty Second Teaser" and "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Lemming" are from sets 6 and 7 of my in-progress series Lemmings Again; these won't be released for a while yet. (I'm happy to send these or any other Cheapo levels by e-mail if you want, though.)

Does Adam's level actually use that 39 minutes though? I know he often puts big things(such as high level size or long time limits) just for the sake of doing so. The UC7 level, Absolute Ultimate Challenge, actually requires all but about 30 seconds of the time as far as I'm aware.

 But no-one can play it! >:( Please read my reply in 'Broken Levels' in Technical Help.

Well, I don't think it should be required that the level can't be done in less time. Adam's level is meant to be hard to get all the way through, not hard because of the time limit. I've completed it with 6:30 left, but that was taking several shortcuts that novice players might not find. (I also several times had the luck of a builder finishing his last brick in just the right place, rather than hitting a wall and turning round, which would have wasted another 10-20 seconds each time.)

If you could find the absolute minimum it's possible to do your level in, I could make a separate category for that, which you would win.

So, how can I play this level of Adam's? Which levelpack is it in?

I don't think it's in any, as I said above. Want it e-mailing?

Yes please, if you have it! benjconway79@<bugger off you spambots!>yahoo.co.uk. I think it's obvious which part to delete! ;P

Say... has anyone beaten "Oblivion" without help yet? If not, maybe it should be on there for that... it's been out for what, 9 months now? "Longest time released without being solved without help"

Maybe, but I doubt anyone has been trying non-stop to pass it for that nine months!

Even so.

I back-routed it about 3 times...  ;)

Yep. And I fixed every one of them.

I didn't even know of the existence of this level until you mentioned it now.  I very much doubt it would've taken me 9 months to either find a solution or a backroute.

So, if you can tell me where I can download the level, I'll take a go at it now.

Another thing:  "longest time released without being solved without help" is, IMHO not all that meaningful about the level itself, since it can mean one or more of the following things that have little to do with the level itself:

1) the people here easily give up on levels, or is relatively quick in starting to ask for hints and help

2) a lot of people here didn't even know about the level

3) given that not every lemmings player in the world knows about this forum, your level could've made this record by luck; there could easily have had been one new member on this forum in between those 9 months who would've been able to solve your level, and then the record wouldn't have been 9 months anymore

That being said, it's an interesting level record to keep track of anyway, even if of somewhat dubious value.

This seems kinda vague.  Let's say I created a level that requires you to use stoppers to go from platform to platform (think level 3 in the original Lemmings).  I could easily extend this to infinity, so that you'll end up saving 1 of X with arbitrarily large X (subject to Cheapo limitations on level size I suppose).

Of course I'm sure you would say that this is unnecessary "for the idea of the level to work", which is certainly true.  But are you then sure that your 1 of 120 level couldn't have been modified, by modifying the terrain and the location of the exit, so that it still demonstrates the idea but allows for a higher percentage (eg. 1 of X with X less than 120)?  Because if such a modification exists, it would suggest that your level too is "unnecessary for the idea of the level to work", if there exists another level less extreme than yours that still uses your idea.

I think the "shortest time limit" record also has an issue related to what you said above.  The problem is how to define "interesting".  Clearly the less skills required to solve the level, the more you can shorten the time limit, but of course at some point with so few required skills the level will no longer become interesting.  The question then is where to put this boundary between interesting and non-interesting, and this seems to require a subjective judgment call.

perhaps it might be better to make the record being the ratio of number of skills provided to the number of seconds given.

[Note that I'm in no way saying your level doesn't deserve this record.  this is just a theoretical discussion on the merits of the record itself.]

In an effort to see which records are still open to being broken (and this is, by the way, why I talked earlier about issues with certain records--I was seeking clarification on what it means to "legally" break the records in issue).

But yes, as I said, in an effort to see which records are still open to being broken, this is the result:

"Most lemmings":  CLOSED

sadly, we won't get to make a level with more than 255 lemmings due to a technical limitation with Cheapo that has nothing to do with game design or level design.

But had the level file format support higher numbers, this record is definitely still open, since it's possible to break a level into independent sub-levels in order to require even higher number of lemmings, while maintaining a baseline of "interesting-ness" to the level.

---------------------------------

"Longest time limit":  OPEN

definitely opened to be broken.  Simply require more tasks to be done in the level should allow for higher time limits.  Of course, maybe I shouldn't say anything until I've actually see the current recordholding level myself.

---------------------------------

"Highest release rate":  CLOSED

again, curse Cheapo for not allowing higher numbers on this, but other than that I think this record is still probably still open, since you can shorten the time limit in order to help enforce higher release rates.

---------------------------------

"Largest area":  OPEN

I don't know what the Cheapo limitation is on level size, but aside from that this record is still open, since you can require more level area by giving the player more tasks to do.

---------------------------------

"Fewest total skills on a non-traning level":  OPEN

I'm surprised no one has yet make the logical step of creating a level that has 0 skills but still requires you to do something to get lemmings to the exit.  Once that's done the record will truly be closed, unless there's a way to get negative number of skills (I don't even know what the heck this would mean).

---------------------------------

"Most entrances":  OPEN

barring some Cheapo limitation (which I'm pretty sure would be higher than 50 anyway), this record is definitely still open, since you can require more entrances without sacrificing "interesting-ness", by having more independent sub-levels within the level, each with its own entrances

---------------------------------

Since I'm not interested in creating gigantic levels, I think I will take the task of breaking the last 2 records mentioned, that is unless someone else beats me to them first.

I figure we might as well throw in a new record category:

"most number of level records held"

The current recordholder for this would of course be Adam's "The long trek to freedom", holding the record for both "longest time limit" and "largest area", as well as, of course, the record "most number of level records held"  ;P.

I now look forward to see a level that has 255 lemmings out, has a time limit of 40:00, a release rate of 255, an area of 1600x1600, and has 51 entrances.  O_O ;P

Ultimate Challenge 3, the level pack containing Oblivion, can be downloaded here at Lemming Crazy.

I take your point about the vagueness of my "interesting level" criterion; really, though, that criterion was just meant to block people seeing this topic and thinking "Oh, I want a level record!"

I couldn't have changed the terrain on "A Shock to the System", incidentally, since I was designing that with ResEdit, which is a general resource file editor, and only accidentally includes Lemmings level-altering features.

Adam's level actually does use Cheapo's maximum allowed level size, so I think that one is closed. I don't know it if would be possible to get higher with a hex editor?

Ok, I've now broken the record once and for all on this.  Here is a level with 0 skills, but you have to do something reasonably non-trivial to get to the exit.

Unfortunately I need to find a way to distribute the level on the web.  In the meanwhile, e-mail guestlevels@yahoo.com if you want to get the level.

(Note that I specifically setup that e-mail address for the purpose of this level, so I will only be replying to e-mails related to that level.  All other e-mails will be ignored.)

For those who solved the level, I would like to hear how you solved it, and more importantly, whether you were able to find a way to exceed the required number to save, because I truly have no idea what is the maximum you can save.

You already know my e-mail address. Please send it.

Oh yeah, the name of the level is......

"Fewest total skills on a non training level"

......yeah alright, the level title is awfully lame, but I assure you the level itself is far from lame......

I've now also adjust the time limit so that it is 00:17, 3 seconds shorter than the current recordholder.

So I guess this level now also holds the record of "shortest time limit" as well.  And with 2 records held, the level is now tied with "the long trek to freedom" for "most number of level records held".  ;P

The Long Trek To Freedom had 3 prior to this level coming, the "Most Held" being one of them. Your level only has two. Once you get three, it will become tied, and gain equal on the "Most Held", which also then gives it a 4th, putting it in Most Held alone.

I'm not actually doing a "Most Held" record, so the discussion is a bit pointless.

I've changed the "fewest total skills" record to reflect the fact that guest's level beat the record by using 0 skills. Nicely done.

I've decided to give my level the better title it deserves, so let's try this one:

"This level requires no skill"

Ahribar, when you have time please update your recordkeeping post to reflect the title change.  Sorry for the inconvenience.

Done.

Ok, I just checked wledit and you're right.

I'll have to ask Essman about whether some sort of static array is used to keep track of either the terrain pixels or the various active objects.  If yes, then we might not be able to hex edit our way out of this.  If no, then this is a theoretical option.

But I say theoretical because unlike other records, this record is not just a number, but you presumably would also need to fill up that excess level area with actual graphics and stuff.  Since the level editor probably doesn't handle this, this could mean you have to hex-edit the graphics etc. in too!

So from a practical standpoint, no one's really going to bother and I have to say this record is probably closed until maybe when the newer Cheapo comes out.  Oh well.

You could do whichever has the smallest ratio of unused space to level size.

Ok, I've just played the level.  It's an interesting and unique level alright.

But was it a red herring to do 18 out of 20?  I got 100% in.

Well okay, I guess this 100% solution is technically "Cheapo only", though I didn't even realize that until I think about it now.  (No, not a cheap trick at all, just something you don't normally think about.)

I'll try again and see if I can do a solution that would've been acceptable in original Lemmings.

Ok, a "original Lemmings compatible" solution to Oblivion has been found.  Now it's truly only 18 out of 20.  But the blockers are no longer as interesting, as I've 18 of them left over.

Just in case there was an update to this level, I want to point out I got my copy of the level from the "lemming crazy" site Ahribar pointed out somewhere in this thread.  If this is not the most recent version someone let me know.  It's the level from Ultimate Challenge 3.

Please e-mail me your solutions...........

The 100% solution has inspired me to create my own level in honor of it, lest Steaver hurries off to modify his level to eliminate it forever for future generations to come.  ;P

So here it is, "After the Rainstorm".  As usual, e-mail guestlevels@yahoo.com for the level until I find a way to distribute it.  Alternatively, you could just post here saying you want it, and I'll find a way to e-mail the level directly to you.

Oh, and as a bonus, I haven't really tested this level thoroughly, so if you managed to find a backroute, the more power to you!  (I have tested the level to be solvable however.  Good luck though.  B))

Since no one has really asked me for my levels so far, I'll give you a preview of what "After the Rainstorm" is like:

imagine Oblivion, with very similar terrain layout, and same skillset, 20 lemmings 100%.

The difference:  the entire part of the level above ground, save the exit platform, is flooded with water.  Hence the name.

Now that I think of it, there is a remote but completely untested possibility that you can solve Oblivion without using any blockers.

Hope not, but if so I might need to modify "After the Rainstorm"......

I don't think it's possible to beat it without blockers by going under. I've been trying it... every time there's a mass of lemmings that sneaks by before the bridge is complete, and it always pans out the same, even with minor variations. Unless you had something else in mind...

Oh phooey, I've just managed to solve Oblivion getting 100% in without using a single blocker.  But the solution is so pendatic compared to what I was originally blabbing about.

I'm afraid I'll need to retract "After the Rainstorm", at least for the moment.  Well, actually I don't really need to, but still, I want some time to rethink.  Maybe later tonight.

Well, originally I did have something else in mind (sort of), but I just discovered the more pedantic idea going under works quite fine, provided you do something crucial of course.  As for what that is, I'll leave it to you to exercise your problem solving skills.

You identified the problem, what are all the possible solutions?  Especially now that you heard what I said about blockers.

Wow! I've just finished 'The Long Trek to Freedom', and it was a lot of fun! I had 10:52 remaining and I saved 197 lemmings. It seems that there are a LOT of possible solutions. I wonder what the quickest possible solution is. :???:

Ok, I've made some minor changes to my "After the Rainstorm" level and have deemed it finalized and ready for release.  E-mail guestlevels@yahoo.com or post here if anyone's interested.  E-mail same address if you have any questions, concerns etc. about this level and the earlier "This Level Requires No Skill".

On an aside, I finally solved Oblivion the intended way.  The skillset distribution and the, well, strange terrain setup more or less give away what was intended after some experimentation with other stuff that doesn't work.  What actually tripped me up was, believe it or not, dealing with the trap.  Silly me.  Anyway, neat level, good job Steaver for coming up with not just the idea but an almost successful way to make it work.

Congratulations. I believe you are the first to solve it without help.

Now go solve the harder Oblivion levels. :P

Thanks.  Actually as I've stated on the Cheapo level pack thread, I've solved them all by now.

Ah, I guess you mean solving them using the oblivion tricks.  Eh, maybe some other time, you do realize it can get a little tedious to have to give individual attention to so many lemmings just to get them to stay still, right?   ;) So I think I'll just be happy with doing things my alternative (but fully legal) ways for now.  ;P

I like "Castle" the best of them all.  In fact the oblivion thing there was far less interesting (especially now that the trick is known) then the puzzle of working out the rest of the level piece by piece.  It's a good thing I didn't really need to go through the tedium of using anywhere close to 40 blockers, as it turned out.  (Oh, and that 1-pixel dent on the wall on the left sure was a nice twist.)

Anyhow, thanks for the levels!  :)

Being the dinosaur that I am when it comes to WWW stuff, I finally discovered that Yahoo has this "Yahoo Geocities" thing.  So I finally found a solution to distributing my levels.

The two I've mentioned ["This Level Requires No Skill" and "After the Rainstorm"] can now be downloaded through this following excruciatingly awful webpage:  http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/

More levels to come in the near future, particularly levels that are a little more mainstream than these two.

(note: you need the ability to open zip files to get the levels)

Sorry....... I've passed AUC with more than 10 minutes left. I don't know any more which of yours and Adam's actually requires most time to pass.

Damn, my last post here seems to have got deleted.......

Anyway, I 100%ed Absolute Ultimate Challenge with 11:30 left (26:15 used) and The Long Trek to Freedom with more than 20 minutes left (aargh, I really can't remember the exact time! and I was so careful to make it as minimal as I could!)

In both levels the solution can be made quicker by not going for 100% -- in AUC by only a couple of minutes, in LTF by at least 5 minutes, I would think. So AUC is definitely the level that holds the record for most time actually required.

Heh, I created a level with a time limit of 99:99, but only a minute or so of that is actually needed so I guess that excludes it. The level is supposed to seem like a malfunction in the game (Like lemmings binary) and it hasn't been released properly yet. It's called Lemmings Hexadecimal and it isn't easy  ;P

The main problem seems to be containing the crowd without using a builder. It'll take some thought . . .

Neat level.  Incidentally, what happens if you make the time limit 100:100 or maybe even 255:255?

Reasonable guess: same as when the time limit is 99:99, the seconds count down to 0 and then the next minute starts from 59 as usual. Numbers above 99 are shown as just their last two digits (as when you have more than 99 of a skill.)

I've done another big level. If you want it PM me. Ahribar and myself are trying to figure out the time limit it is possible in. I hope that it beats the current record. It also looks better than my LTF.

EDIT You can download it [URL=http://xthost.info/AdamsLemmings/Big%20255%20even%20odder.lev]here[/URL]

I was going to try out the level, and then I saw how much building I'd have to do just to get up to the exit from the bottom  X_X, at which point I immediately lose interest.   ;P

...Other than that, nice level.  :D

I managed to save 2 lemmings in sixteen minutes!  ;P

I'm going to have nightmares about that level for weeks!  =8O

And why is that then?

I don't know. It probably won't be that bad.

If it isn't PM me to tell me where you found it pretty easy.

Very nice level, Adam.

I can complete it with sixteen minutes (and three diggers) left, but this time I can't see any way to use fewer than the given number of builders!

I found the level very relaxing...... just what I needed, actually, when I've got a bad cold and don't want to stress myself out too much. Many thanks!

Shortest time limit -- 0:15 on my Inner Hurry

Ooh, I'm so evil! :devil:

As odd as it sounds, the level terrain gave the solution of that level away for me after about 3 or 4 failed attempts.

That said, I have an idea for a 12 second level, I just need to implement the trick I need correctly. It's kind of hard to describe.

EDIT: Got it. Now, I have to see if I can do with sans Fast Forward glitch, and maybe throw in a few better red herring routes.

Isu, does it involve the use of FF by any chance? I know it's very cheap, but I can't think of any other way.

Isu: sorry, but levels that involve cheating are not eligible for a record. :P

As far as I'm aware, that level requires no cheating; unless you mean that cheap levels are levels that require you to cheat... Can you PM me your solution?

Conway: Hint: The fastforward helps (Slower screen fade), but not to an extent where you can save 10.

Let's see . . .

 1. There is clearly no quicker route to the exit.
 2. There can't be a hidden exit, or any other hidden object, in Cheapo.
 3. You can't change the release rate.
 4. None of the skills are able to speed the lemmings up, only slow them down.
 5. You can't even use the 'nuke when one lemming comes out and he = 100%' trick in Cheapo, nor could you in this situation anyway.

 Any what do you mean by The fastforward helps (Slower screen fade), but not to an extent where you can save 10? Do you mean that it's possible to save 10 without using FF, but it's not possible when you do use FF?  O_o

 Looks like another cheap trick/bug I don't know about.

I'm not so sure, Conway.  Read Insane Steve's comment on the level for example.

(No, I haven't even downloaded the level yet myself.)

Are you sure?


Sorry about being a bit cryptic, the level is possible with or without fast-forward. The but not to an extent where you can save 10 bit was referring to saving 10 (you can save 9 by fast-forward, but not 10). I'm sorry but I can't say any more without giving away the solution. It is a massive cheapie.


This was referring to the intended solution


This was referring to the obvious solution

But you're simply wrong. First time I tried, I hit fast-forward, didn't touch anything else, saved 10.

Ahribar: Yeah, I noticed that too.

 Isu: Very clever! I've just passed it. Clever, but cheap.  >:(

What? That shouldn't be allowed. I thought I'd prevented that from happening. =8O

UPDATE

Now, that will not happen. In case you don't see what I did, I extended the platform and moved the exit further up.

Sorry, FF still saves 10!

What!
How?

Even when I toggle FF as soon as the level fades in, I only save 4 :???: O_o X_X

Note: Sorry about the overuse of smilies here, I need to express my extreme confusion over this somehow...

I think I've figured it out. Do you have 'faster screen fade' checked in the options? I've just checked that option, and with it on, you can only save 4 in FF mode. With 'faster screen fade' off, you can save 10.

Ahh, I see. I never thought that an option could affect whether a backroute was possible or not. I might post an update later.

Just for the sake of it, I thought I'd try to beat the record of shortest level. It's called One Small Step, and it's 12 seconds long. Here it is: >Download!<

Nice, but I think Insane Steve already made a 12 second level.

I just had a thought; wouldn't it be cool if I could put the shortest levels from all of the authors into a cheapo set? If you would like your level included you would need to e-mail me(Look in me profile). It would be quite a cool set if it ever got off the ground...

Whaddya think? Should I go for it?

You can use it, sure! A set of very short levels from all authors sounds like a good idea.

 I was also considering compiling a set of the longest levels.

If you do, make sure to edit Steaver's "Absolute Ultimate Challenge" to require 100% -- it's hardly the ultimate challenge otherwise! :D

I have a 12 second level, but not only is it not refined, it also isn't quite as good as Conway's level. Haven't released it yet.

I'll submit a short level for the set. Right now, I think "Super Happy Fun Panic Level" is the lowest time level I've made yet, but I'll design something shorter for this set if it is made.

Nice level, Conway. I beat it with 3 out of 5, but that was using FF. Is it even possible without?

If we are having a set of short levels, I'll contribute both of mine; I want to remake them in my new style, though, so don't take the versions I've already published.

Right, I'll get started on it then. I'll need Insane Steve's and Ahribar's*.lvl files if they wish to contribute. E-mail is preferred, although I guess I could live with YIM, or even PM, if you're that desperate.

You know how, sometimes, you're making a level for one purpose and instead wind up making something completely different? Well, I was trying to re-do my 12 second level, and after a while, instead made a 40 second level that I think is pretty clever, both design-wise and puzzle-wise.

LEVEL GET

Requires "PinkLemmus.sty" to play.  

OK, here are my submissions for the Very Short Levels set.

http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Twenty.zip

Thats a very nice use of the pink style *Updates set*

I'll start a new topic for this, since this discussion has no real relation to level records