If anyone has any tips and suggestions for building levels, put them here.

Try to make your levels look decent when designing them, don't just scatter blocks just anywhere try to think about where you're placing them. Level's aren't just making places for bashers to bash and builders to build...the levels should look pretty too  ;D

The thing I always forget is: Play test your levels to make sure people can beat them... I submitted two impossible levels to McAleead at LU... And my first LE packs had enough back-routes to make two entire new packs with just back-routes...

Also, there are two styles of LemEdit levels -- the first starts with an idea for a level, and places blocks accordingly to fit the idea. This is best used, well... when you have a level idea. The other way is used best if you don't HAVE an idea for a level -- just start placing terrain blocks in a pattern that looks good, then run the level with many skills, and come up with a level idea from that. Adjust the terrain and skills given as necessary. My later level packs have a LOT of levels like this.

Good job steve -_-

I posted pretty much what you wrote in your first paragraph before, but my computer stuffed up when I was writing it...>_<

yeah anyway...another note about testing...make sure you test every possible outcome in your level...and not only try to eliminate impossibilites...make sure there are no backroutes. And make sure everything works...sometime I find if the exit doesn't have a z value of 000 the lemmings just walk past it.

Actually, no interactive objects except entrances with a Z-order higher than 15 work... Maybe this is due to a single wrong character in the code... Also, although interactive terrain doesn't snap Y-coordinates like it does X-coordinates, I read that interactive terrains (Exits, especially) only work if their Y-coordinates are divisible by 8. That is why the exits or traps don't work sometimes.

I guess everyone knows this already, but in DOS Lemmings, interactive objects with the Y coordinates below 0 (above the top of the screen) cause the game to crash when scrolling to or from them.

 Also in DOS Lemmings, no more than four trap doors can work in one level.

 Now for an actual tip: In LemEdit or Cheapo, always test every interactive trap and exit to make sure they work, otherwise you could have a backroute from a faulty trap.

I've never had an exit that doesn't work before.

My Tips: As before mentined, make art out of your levels.  Another thing about the art is that sometimes it can be there, and look like it's simply art, but it is in reallity, a part of the level!  I did this when I made the level "Lemmings on the Roof!".  It's in my first level pack.

I often slap together levels randomly - 90% of my levels are made this way.

As far as I can remember, my only level without any randomness, apart from the We All Fall Down/Up ones(which were based on Lemmings 1 levels) and The Parking Lot(which was also based on a Lemmings 1 level) is Oblivion. Even the ones based on it had randomness!

Oblivion, I had the idea fully made before I started. The only thing I added after making it(apart from things to make it possible - took about 10 attempts before it finally worked) was the word OBLIVION across the blocks.

See -- The Annoying One-Pixel Gap, Set 7 from LemEdit of mine.

Steve ;)...thanks for the divisible by 8 thing...weird...where'd you find that out....and if you can only have things divisibly by 8 wouldn't that mean you can only have 4 objects?

anyway another think with Lemedit...steel's Y value cannot be out of the screen either

The Y value must be divisible by 8, not the object number(or Z value, or whatever you call it).

I dunno if it's the same thing for you all with Cheapo, but I always think more to the styles than the levels... I'm not a good drawer and I'm not habituated with the level editor. I mean, we cannot move terrain pieces that we placed before. We need to erase them and make a new one. It could be great if the editor could accept to move terrain pieces or get Undo/Redo buttons, isn't it? Do you have some tips on this that could help me?

How do I make a hard level?

Just do what you can think of. A lot of the time, you won't find your own levels hard. Quite a few of my levels, I've been told by at least one person are hard, yet I find very easy... the best example of this is "Just Get Your Lemmings There" from Ultimate Challenge 5.

Unless you already have an idea for a hard level, just do as Steaver said and create a random layout, then find the very most that can be saved with the very least time and/or skills. Quite a few of my Lemedit levels were designed this way.

Well... Sometimes I think to an idea for a level then I make it. Sometimes I really don't know what kind of level I'll create, so I put random pieces on the map then I try to make it hard.

Think to an idea? Don't you mean, think OF an idea? lol

You know that I'm not perfect in English. But thanks to correct me.

Another tip: When making repeat levels, check everything (introductions, hints) before releasing the packs. I saw in Steaver's L+ in Insane 1-3 that they have the same introductions as Funny 11/Funny 16/Strange 5. There are lots more levels that have this, but I'm too lazy to list them!  ;P

Oh, I forgot to say this: I voted for "Make an easy level and do a "harder" version" because it's fun, and I like the idea of repeat levels.

I don't really like repeat levels. Especially We All Fall Down! Those levels are SO annoying!

Well, all repeat levels I like except the ones I hate

So you either love or hate...No wishy-washiness with you! :D

I like most of the repeat levels. Some exceptions are "King Of The Castle" and "Stepping Stones(Sega Master System)". (The SMS level called Stepping Stones is actually a harder version of Tricky 12. The SMS Mayhem 21 is identical to the PC Taxing 21. The SMS Taxing 21 is an original level)

Repeats, I love 'em, even the 'We all fall down' repeats. This explains why a few of my levels are repeated not once, but twice

Hey, first time poster. I wish I could say long time lurker but I just recently discovered this forum  :)

My friend recently got me back into Lemmings with the discovery of a DOS emulator. I played through all the levels even though I had thought it was impossible when I was 8 years old ;)

Even then I drew ideas for Lemmings levels, but it was just a childhood dream. It's hard to believe that it is now a reality 10 years later. Too bad I don't have those old papers anymore  :-(  Haha, yeah right, I bet they were all either impossible or too easy...

So far I've been using LemEdit and CustLemm, haven't tried Cheapo yet but I imagine I will soon since LemEdit isn't working on this computer (it won't recognize my laptop's mouse or touchpad, even under the DOS emulator). But I went home from college over Thanksgiving break and worked for hours on levels, since we've got an old 166 MHz comp with Windows 98 on it. I won't be able to sit down and make the levels for about 3 weeks, but I'll be drafting for sure.

Sorry for the long introduction. In my so far short level making career (only 8 completed levels, but over 5 days that's not too bad), it seems like I've already tried the different ways of making levels. I'd say half the levels I had ideas for before I sat down to make them, and the others happened on the spot. They're all short, but I would like to get a full and better pack out over winter break. I find that having an idea before sitting down turns out a lot better than the other way, which sometimes seems almost too forced and unnatural, but still can have quite good and challenging results of course. The best things happen by accident. I guess what I should say is that when you have an idea beforehand, maybe the level isn't necessarily better, but the work is much less indeed. Of course half the challenge/fun is trying to beat your own levels, when you don't even know the solution yourself!

So, I don't know if people still use LemEdit and CustLemm anymore, but if they do, I've got an 8-level pack ready (with 2 dud maps at the end, for now). A couple of the levels are interesting imo... a couple are not so interesting... but if you're looking for more short levels... :)

Edit: Alright, I just saw the Level Pak topic, posted it there.

Hey! Welcome here Shvegait!

You know? Me too I drew levels of Lemmings, I still remember that I went with my friend in his home and have fun making levels on paper! I don't know if I have them again, maybe not... But anyway, you're not the only one that drew levels and dreamed about a level editor.

Anyway... welcome again! Enjoy the forum! :D

He certainly isn't the only one....... I did so many it's unbelievable. Not just for Lemmings, for games like Prince of Persia and many invented games, but Lemmings was the one that really got me started on this strange art form.

Shvegait, I certainly recommend that you try out Cheapo! I've not been working with it long, less than a month, but I've nearly finished my first set of 30 Cheapo levels, which you can try out, but only if you have Cheapo yourself! It's a really great way to make your invented Lemmings levels a reality.

I have a notebook half full of levels for Lemmings. I had two previously completeed notebooks, but lost those. My notebook is divided into 4 sets of 30 levels. I called the sets "Difficult, Menacing, Chaotic, Hopeless" (In order of difficulty. Although, to be frank, the Difficult levels aren't too bad, and neither are some of the early Hopeless levels) -- I am planning to Cheapo re-make this set (A few of the levels will be redundant from past sets, others re-makes of LE levels... but there will be original levels also.

So, you see Shvegait? You're not the only one! :D

I don't think I ever implied that I was, but it's cool to see that this forum exists and there is still such an interest in such an old game :) There was this girl on my bus in 2nd grade who drew them too, and we shared on the bus or something... that was a long time ago though, when I knew nothing...  ;)

If anyone wants to try my first (LemEdit/CustLemm) level pack, it's in the level pack topic. Feedback would be very helpful, though I admit these levels are short and most of them are pretty easy to figure out. Then again, it's hard to tell if something is hard to figure out once you have it figured out, you know? Hard to implement is anoter story, though you shouldn't have much trouble with these compared to many others...

I somehow seemed to have missed this thread until now.  I think all 4 ideas mentioned in the poll are great, and I'd actually say that you should apply as many as you can simultaneously.

For example, for my recent Cheapo level "This level requires no skill" (I promise to find a method at some point to distribute levels on the web), I started off with a specific base idea, motivated by breaking the level record in question.  I then simply created a minimalist style level that just does more or less what my base idea wants, and somewhat randomly assign statistics.  I then start playing around with the level many times and start adjust numbers.  For example, for this level since I can't use skills, I start adjusting how many lemmings come out.  And in essence what happened is, I ended up applying the "play around with it until you get an interesting/hard/fun solution", and that led to the present form of the level, where I've in effect added a bit to what would've been a simple base idea.

For the particular level in question I'm quite constrained, but in other cases, you can apply the other 2 tips.  For example, maybe the level you have right now is a little too sparse and you want to add stuff.  Why not throw in some stuff you've seen before, add a few personal touches, and voila, you've expanded your level, in effect by linking old stuff together.  Repeats are also interesting, if you're absolutely out of fresh ideas.  Or instead of doing a true repeat, you might choose to do a repeat with slight but critical modifications [think "Just a Minute" and "Just a Minte (Part 2)"].  Or heck, maybe you'll incorporate an entire old level into parts of a new level...Insane Steve's "Honey I Shrunk the Levels" is a brilliant example.

So I think all 4 tips are equally useful and should be applied in tandem.  Then the sky's the limit.

I too drew many levels when I was younger, but I've lost them all. They were pretty pathetic anyway. Not a single one was hard.

Heh, by the most bizarre coincidence just a couple of days ago I managed to find the old set of levels I drew -- must have been around eleven or twelve years ago -- and yes, like yours, they were pretty pathetic. I might re-make some of them in Cheapo when I have time just for the comedy value.

Some of mine are hard, but only because they involve lots of building through a huge level. Bizarrely, though, one I thing I quite often did was draw a pretty hard level and then negate the hardness by only requiring 1 to be saved.........

My notebooks contain a lot of poorly scaled levels. 8.5x11 inches is not the typical lemmings level terrain. All the straight lines weren't really straight. And some of the levels were probably impossible. A few of the levels were REALLY out of place. (The second to last level in my first two notebook attempts is currently remade in the FIRST SET of my Cheapo remakes.)

Actually, I have a plan.  I'm going to create a notebook.  I've started collecting statistics, such as lemming level playing area (1584x160) and the number of pixels a lemming will fall off of and die (65 not counting the pixel above(When I say this, imagine we all fall down.  If you ran up 65 pixels, the first pixel being directly above the lower platform, then you would land on the top pixel of the top platform.  I'm not sure where the Lemming actually starts falling).  I'm also going to try to dig out of Mike, the formulas for lemming release (release rate (lemmings per second) trapdoors (order of release from)), rate of lemming movement (falling,digging,anything basically), length of dying animations (if a lemming is a bomber, and he explodes during the animation, the effects still occur), pixel positioning of mouse (it is only so precise in where it can be), real time of bomb count down, max time allowed in a level (99?), slant and length of bridges, and several other things.  I will collect these things in a notebook.  then I will print all of the terrain pieces in black onto paper from each set.  These will follow the numbers.  Following will be multifold pieces of paper, that are basically blank paper lemmings levels-you will be able to tell the pixels because the pixels will alternate, light blue, white, light blue, white, etc.  and look like a checker board.  On these, you can trace terrains.  On the backs will be statistics, such as number of lemmings, lemmings saved, etc.  Using the numbers from section one, you can test your levels for possibility.

In short - the ultimate on-the-go level design book!

You could make levels-anywhere!

recap
sec.1-valuable statistics
       -physics statistics
       -physics rules
sec.2-terrain piece black prints
       -object black prints
sec.3-design sheets

Oh, and it'll all be in a binder.  This way, levels and terrain sheets can be removed and put back in.
---------------
On a side note, I've developed a refined process for making levels.

Sounds interesting, but also very complicated, both to make and to use. And it doesn't sound all too usefull, unless you're on holiday without a computer or a laptop, and you feel a desperate desire to design a level, which you still can't properly build or test until you get back.

 However, all this information would be useful for creating an exact replica of Lemmings but non-DOS based, like Cheapo, but even closer to the original design.

 Still, it sounds like an interesting project. I just don't think it would serve much of a purpose.

Well, actually you could "test" a level-you just have to use a couple of things from sec. 1 to find out where a lemming would be at a certain time (precise timing here based on math-no guesses), how fast they come out of the trapdoor(also math), how long a hole would take to dig(ditto), etc.  If you have all the right numbers, then you'll know where the lemming will be.  What helps is, if I'm not mistaken, the lemmings' rate of movement does not change over inclines.

The purpose was so you could design levels away from home.  Geez, I'd do it in school!

EDIT:First level design sheet has been created.

It's been over half a year, will we ever see them released?

I think it'd be too tedious and error-prone to really try to hand-simulate the movements of individual Lemmings as you suggested above.  Besides, it's mostly unnecessary anyway.  When a human solves a level, you generally don't try to simulate what exactly happens to the lemmings.  Instead you just have a general idea of what to do, and then try it out to see if it works out.

Unless you're going for some very timing-sensitive moves, I think you can easily get away with designing the levels without trying to simulate the lemmings' movement at all.  You can deal with that later by playing on the computer; after all, you should playtest your level at least once before releasing it.


You're mistaken, or at least only half-right.

If the step in front of the lemming is 0-2 pixels high, then yes.  But if it's 3-6 pixels high, what happens instead is that the lemming momentarily turns into a jumper (if you pause the game at the right moment and highlight the lemming, you'll find that it is listed as a "jumper" instead of a walker, unless it has been assigned a climber or floater).  The jumper moves up I believe at most 2 pixels per frame (less if the top of the step is reached), and the game already moves him up 2 pixels during the frame when he transitions from walker to jumper.

So for example, if the step in front of a Lemming is 6 pixels, then it takes 3 frames to get up there, instead of 1.

Of course, most inclines are not too steep, so you won't get steps of 3 pixels or higher.  But certain terrains, such as the staircase in the "columns" set, does have tall steps.

Most of the time, I'll just start building a level without having a specific idea. I think 9 out of 10 levels I am creating that way aren't good enough imo, but I have to play the levels a while before I know that :P

Interesting that no-one yet has voted for "Finding ways to link several old tricks"; I very much enjoyed the recent collaborative level using this device. :D

Well it's an old poll, so I'm not sure how accurately it still reflects current practices.  I'm sure there are more levels out there that combines tricks than what the poll would suggest.

Of course, one tricky aspect of combining tricks is that, you have to make sure you can't use the skills intended for one trick to get around the second trick.  In other words, more potential for backroutes if you were not careful.